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  1. #1
    TsavongLah
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    Default GW Citadel Washes?

    I've been looking around for a better way to shade minis, and dips and the Citadel washes are the two that have caught my eye recently. I'm leaning toward the washes because ArmyPainter stuff is retarded expensive. However, if you have a reasonably exact recipe (product names and mix amounts in oz.) for a home-brewed dip and think that it's way way more awesome that any Citadel wash, I'd love to hear about it.

    So I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with the Citadel washes and can tell me about them. Obviously the Badab Black is going to look great on metallics, but which brown should I be using if I'm washing over Cygnar blues? I'm not a huge fan of P3's Armor Wash since it's too thin and doesn't settle to recesses very well; are the Citadels any thicker?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by TsavongLah; 12-06-2009 at 05:54 PM.

  2. #2
    Conqueror aai's Avatar
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    Dipping is just a blanket way to shade the whole mini.

    GW washes are hardly washes at all; they are heavy glazes. There are different colors so they can shade whatever color pretty effectively. GW shades such as badab black and devlan mud are excellent, but I have used the other colored shades to create cool effects as well. I read a review for them that summed them up perfectly... it marked them as an excellent tool for the hobbyist and army painter, but will never be a staple of more experienced painters.

  3. #3
    Capsfan34
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    I use the Devlan Mud, just check out my thread to see the results...
    http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?t=2224

  4. #4
    TsavongLah
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    Dipping is just a blanket way to shade the whole mini.
    If I were to go that route I would almost certainly be painting it on.

  5. #5
    rvrchamp
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    I use Badab black over pretty much everything... check out the link in my sig for a few examples.

    That said, I would highly encourage you to pick up Gryphonne Sepia and Orgrun Flesh. Golds can easily be done by using a light metal color (like chainmail or mithril silver) and washing it 3-4 times with the Gryphonne Sepia. This color is great for using on browns...

    Ogrun Flesh is great for tying in flesh tones.

    Overall, I think the washes are tremendous but are definitely slower than a straight up "dip process."

  6. #6
    admanb
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    Devlan Mud and Badab Black are like the liquid gods of tabletop-quality painting.

  7. #7
    skrulnik
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    Devlan Mud. Works on damn near everything.

    Ogryn Flesh gives skin a nice tone.

  8. #8
    Mr_Smigs
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    yeah. gotta second it...

    Devan mud and Badab Black should come in 20oz bottles, not the tiny pots...

    it's great stuff.

  9. #9
    Uehen
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    The GW washes are the best thing ever.
    Ever ever. Fool proof. They are amazing if you take your time, but they still look awesome if you just slop it on. Do not water them down. Use direct from bottle.

    I paint my army orange and the use Baal red to turn it a nice fiery red.
    And slapping a layer of badda black on anything makes it look awesomer.

    I have used several bottles of red and two black, but I have the full set.
    They are 100% easy button.

  10. #10
    Keravin
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    Love the washes. For the Cygnar blue I'd look at Devlan Mud for the wash, though I might mix some Asurmen blue in with it to not muddy the blue too much.

  11. #11
    MajorGilbear
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    Quote Originally Posted by TsavongLah View Post
    I'm leaning toward the washes because ArmyPainter stuff is retarded expensive.
    Don't use Army Painter then; all it is is glorified wood stain afterall. See here for a guide on dipping, brush-on dipping and alternative products.

    Quote Originally Posted by TsavongLah View Post
    However, if you have a reasonably exact recipe (product names and mix amounts in oz.) for a home-brewed dip [...]
    Try making some Magic Wash?
    Personally though, I use a dab of paint and/or ink, some Vallejo Matte Medium and some Vallejo Glaze Medium - you get any wash/glaze colour you want that way, it can be opaque or transparent, thick or thin, and it is totally matte.

    Quote Originally Posted by TsavongLah View Post
    So I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with the Citadel washes and can tell me about them.
    The Brushthralls article here is pretty comprehensive and shows before/after shots of most of the colours. Essentially:

    1) Take bottle of Citadel Wash
    2)
    3) Profit

    If in (2) you 'slap' the stuff on, don't expect miracles. If in (2) you are careful and apply them more like traditional glazes, you can get some astonishing results.

    Quote Originally Posted by TsavongLah View Post
    Obviously the Badab Black is going to look great on metallics, but which brown should I be using if I'm washing over Cygnar blues? [...] are the Citadels any thicker?
    Sticking with the Citadel Washes, you have three main options:
    1) Mix the colours; adding a little brown or black to the blue.
    2) Apply the colours in layers; wash first with blue, then go back and add second layer of brown or black to the deeper recesses
    3) Colour theory; shade by using a wash that is opposed to the colour you need - so for blue try shading with a little brown/orange

    And yes, Citadel washes are pretty gloopy.

    Quote Originally Posted by TsavongLah View Post
    I'm not a huge fan of P3's Armor Wash since it's too thin and doesn't settle to recesses very well
    You could try adding a little Vallejo Matte Medium to the Armour Wash. It will thin the colour intensity a little, but it will behave a lot more like paint than ink when you come to brush it on. I find it streaks less easily like this too.

  12. #12
    Kaptain Von
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorGilbear View Post
    Sticking with the Citadel Washes, you have three main options:
    1) Mix the colours; adding a little brown or black to the blue.
    2) Apply the colours in layers; wash first with blue, then go back and add second layer of brown or black to the deeper recesses
    3) Colour theory; shade by using a wash that is opposed to the colour you need - so for blue try shading with a little brown/orange
    I go for option 2. An initial wash of Asurmen Blue to shade the colour properly, and then a good slopping of Devlan Mud over the feet and legs and anything else that's going to get mucky. Works wonders, especially if you trail a little bit of your basing material up the mucky areas to get a three-dimensional layer of mud and mank as well.

  13. #13
    AndyFrazer
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    Personally I would just go for the woodstain. It's much cheaper than GW or Army Painter.

    I use Ronseal, but it might not be available in AUS. The main thing is to get a water-based stain, as it's easier to thin it in smaller amounts.

    The tin should say that the brush you use can be cleaned out with water, that way, you can pick up some stain on the brush and dip it in some water to thin the stain as required.

    The trick I find to getting good results with stain is to paint your base colours a shade stronger than you normally would (i.e. a brighter shade) as the dip tends to mute the colours a bit.

    I'm afraid there is no hard and fast ratios I can suggest, but the stuff is cheap enough that you can afford to make a few mistakes. That's another reason to go for the stuff that can be cleaned off with water. It makes it much easier to save your minis from dip-death.

    Good luck...

  14. #14
    Talking Head
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    Regarding dips:

    Minwax Polyshades is the stuff you want. Not just any old minwax woodstain. I'm not sure what the Polyshades analog is for other brands.

    You might have to cut it with mineral spirits (the black polyshades for example requires cutting), or you might not have to cut it. It depends on the color, always test on an old model or bit first.

    Don't be afraid to leave it on "a little thick". If you shake off too much, the effect is hard to notice.

    Apply a matte sealer to the model, as the dip will make it shiney.

    Your model will NEVER chip. Ever.

    I've heard, but can not confirm, that Simple Green will strip the dip coating.

    There is little to no evidence that I am aware of that the Army Painter dip is anything more than some UK woodstain company's analog of Minwax Polyshades repackaged with a huge markup slapped on it. I've got a mech thrall dipped in cut Minwax Polyshades Black and Wrathe dipped in Army Painter Dark Tone sitting side by side on a shelf next to my computer. I don't see any difference (other than the difference in size between my 32 oz Polyshades can that cost a fraction of what the 8 oz Army Painter can).


    Regarding the Citadel washes:

    Don't be afraid to really slather it on the model. If you apply the washes in a very thin coat, the effect is hardly noticable.

  15. #15
    rvrchamp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talking Head View Post

    Your model will NEVER chip. Ever.
    My skorne is all chipped up for normal play. I also matt sprayed the models, and am pretty careful with them.

    So ya, polyshades is not "that" awesome, but this is just my experience.

  16. #16
    Steel Rabbit
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    Citadel Washes are the greatest thing to happen to painting since brushes. I use them to great effect. Mostly I do a basecoat, then a highlight or two, then I wash the fig, and call it a day.

  17. #17
    Killionaire
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    Citadel Washes are amazing. I use them extensively to paint all of my minis. Ever since I started experimenting with them then getting specific techniques, my quality has gone up and the time required to paint a mini has gone down greatly.

    They're real miracle tools for mini painting, and I swear by them.

  18. #18
    mrhuettel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Rabbit View Post
    Citadel Washes are the greatest thing to happen to painting since brushes. I use them to great effect. Mostly I do a basecoat, then a highlight or two, then I wash the fig, and call it a day.
    agreed! i usually apply the basic colours on the mins and then just wash them with one or two layers to get the effect desired - and snap! done... (after adding to details for several hours, of course)

    most used: badab black, devlan mud and asurmen blue - cygnar style.

  19. #19
    robynln
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    Default Magic Washes

    I have collected several magic wash recipes on my blog site:

    http://gameavatar.org/wordpress/?page_id=263

    The one that I tend to like the best is:
    Ingredients:
    1 oz. Higgins Black India Ink
    1 oz. Higgins Brown Ink
    5 oz. Future Floor Finish
    2 oz. Distilled Water
    16 oz. Container with watertight lid, the wider the better
    Higgins Ink in both colors can be found at most art supplies stores. The other ingredients can
    be found at any grocery store. Combine all liquid ingredients in the container, in the following
    order: 5 oz. Future Floor Finish, 1 oz. Higgins Black Ink, 1 oz. Higgins Brown Ink, and 2 oz.
    Distilled Water. Mix thoroughly.

    You can substitute different ink colors from the Higgins line of inks for the black and brown inks to achieve different colors.

    Robyn

  20. #20
    Larkin Vain
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    I love the GW washes. I just picked up 2 bottles of Badab Black and one more bottle of Devlan Mud from my LGS last night. My basher was base coated then wash with badab black and then highlighted.


  21. #21
    Faultie
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    I use the GW washes a lot on most of my models, but especially on my Mercs (who have been on campaign a few seasons, so are pretty wear-and-tear looking).

    Devlan Mud and Badab Black are nice. I also recommend Gryphonne Sepia.

  22. #22
    Mael
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    Quote Originally Posted by aai View Post
    GW washes are hardly washes at all; they are heavy glazes.
    No, the GW Inks are heavy glazes. the GW Washes are actually washes (and really do a great job too so try them out!)

    I have a tutorial up (from that unmentionable game) where you can see the pictures of the wash in action. I use bahdab black in step 4:
    http://warpainter.wordpress.com/2009...nator-captain/

    Another model that has been used with the washes:
    http://warpainter.wordpress.com/2009...-home-stretch/

    All of these Troll metal bits have been treated with just a wash of devlan mud, that's it!
    http://warpainter.files.wordpress.co...1/dsc03004.jpg

  23. #23
    wadders
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    GW washes can be used in a manner of ways.

    Dipping, glazing and of course just as first shade. Here is a close up of Devlan mud and badab black over boltgun metal/mithril to create a tarnished metal



    You can see more of the "wash effects" in my gallery (link in sig)

  24. #24
    Shroud
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    Another vote here for GW Washes. I also like Gryphonne Sepia as someone mentioned. I often use these as the basis for glazes or "special treatments" by mixing additional stuff into them. For example, my skaven skin is Leviathan Purple, Sepia, and P3 Flesh Wash.

    Another amazing product is Didi's Magic Ink (Black) from the Warstore. I by these in multiple bottles, and again I use them as the basis for special washes like tarnishing etc.

  25. #25
    N0rdicNinja
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    Yah, the washes truly are amazing when you need to get a mass of stuff finished fast, I'm particularly fond of Gryphon Sepia myself. It will make all your Golds and Reds look amazing, and it will also produce an excellent rust effect on metal pieces. And it work just as well for flesh tones as any of the flesh washes. An awesome multi-purpose wash. The two you will find me using the most are Badab Black and Gryphon Sepia, buy them, use them, and love them.

  26. #26
    Conqueror
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    I'm a huge fan on gryphonne sepia, and I've actually been using it through an airbrush to tint Menoth base down to a darkerer earth tone, it works great that way, and when you airbrush it you don't get the same pooling/dipped look (which you'd want to avoid on a base coat anyway).

  27. #27
    TsavongLah
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    Well, it sounds like the Citadel Washes are worth taking a look at. Thanks for all the help, everyone!

    One last question: better to wash then highlight or highlight then wash?

  28. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by TsavongLah View Post
    One last question: better to wash then highlight or highlight then wash?
    I actually do both.

    If you want use only one wash for speed issues, it depends on the color imho. Dark colors should highlighted first (I assume drybrushing) and then washed. It keeps them overall darker. Brighter Colors better washed first for shading (maybe a little thinned) and highlighted afterwards. The final result will be brighter.

    I tend to use pure wash first, then highlight and washing again with dilluted (on bright colors very very dilluted) wash.

  29. #29
    Crazedwarpig
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    If you are looking for a great way to make washes i have used the future wash technique with great success. FUTURE acrylic floor finish for non-wax and regular floors" by Johnson & Son. I use the GW citadel washes with this stuff and my stuff has come out looking amazing. It is trial and error with the mix. But for the most part, it only takes 4-5 drops of the Citadel Wash to a pot of Future.

    As a whole I am not a big fan of GW Paint products. I perfer Vallejo or P3 Paints but the blends that you can do with the Citadel/Future wash combo when shading/highlighting make your stuff look amazing with just a little effort.

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